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YXU Jazz Fog delay Ws takes Off

  • Wednesday morning I was on the 6:10am to YYZ from YXU. On arrival at the airport I asked if the fog was a problem. Told no, boarded. Then of course sat on the runway due to fog. for 30 mins. Then rolled to side of runway for 40mins more. Whole time a poor dog was crying in the hold. I would have driven to YYZ and made my connection had I known.

    When we took off the pilot said we may have noticed a 'western based carrier' jet take off and that our pilot believed the WS plane should not have because of the visibility.

    Does the tower not control who takes off? How did the WS plane get in front of us and go?

    Curious.

    86


  • what were the conditions at YYZ at the time? WS would have been heading west, wheras the Jazz would have been the first YYZ flight of the day. The possibility exists that YYZ was at Cat II (I was out of the country at the time and don't know what the weather was) and the DH8 couldnt do a Cat II approach.

    DH8's are CatII capable. Wether the crew and/or a/c were capable that day is anyones guess.
    In the event of an engine failure on takeoff, there must also be an alternate airport within 60 minutes flying time.
    https://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/manuals/GenericOps703/chapter4/section5.htm


  • Pretty pathetic of you to claim that the WS pilots "compromised passenger safety" when you weren't there, don't know the specific weather details at the time in question, don't understand the operational differences between the performance of a 737 vs. a DH8, or the differences in SOP's between Jazz and Westjet.

    Yeah, pretty pathetic you didn't even do me the courtesy of actuallly reading my earlier post. :rolleyes:


  • Would that be the same as,"the fog lifted for a few minutes" or,"there was a break in the fog"?
    Trying to put it into terms I am more familiar with :o


    For the WJ pilots sake I hope indeed the fog did lift for a brief moment in the time period they took off.


  • When we took off the pilot said we may have noticed a 'western based carrier' jet take off and that our pilot believed the WS plane should not have because of the visibility.

    Does the tower not control who takes off? How did the WS plane get in front of us and go?

    Curious.

    86

    Similar thing happened to me in YWG in Jan '04. We're on NW A320. Cannot take off because temp is below -40'C!!!!!!!! Look out my window, AC and WS are going off as scheduled?? Captain said it was an FAA thing and canadian carriers had diff rules. I was so pissed b/c I missed my cnx in MSP and missed an event later that night in PHX.
    Our pilot did not make an idiot comment like the Regional jet pilot in your case - Some of these captains (esp. one on a CRJ making $50k / yr need to lose the attitudes and ego and wake the f up).


  • edited


  • For the WJ pilots sake I hope indeed the fog did lift for a brief moment in the time period they took off.

    More info would be nice on this one. What was the prevailing RVR? What was the weather at the Dashs destination? Was the Dash Capt. operating under " new Capts" limits? Was there a shortage of T/O alternates in the 60 minute range that an ETOPS 737 would not be affected by?

    Lots of variables.


  • what were the conditions at YYZ at the time? WS would have been heading west, wheras the Jazz would have been the first YYZ flight of the day. The possibility exists that YYZ was at Cat II (I was out of the country at the time and don't know what the weather was) and the DH8 couldnt do a Cat II approach.


  • !?!?!?!?!?

    The very phrase you quoted says that the AC pilot's behaviour was unprofessional and that the poster doesn't believe WS would compromise passenger safety!

    =aw


  • Wednesday morning I was on the 6:10am to YYZ from YXU. On arrival at the airport I asked if the fog was a problem. Told no, boarded. Then of course sat on the runway due to fog. for 30 mins. Then rolled to side of runway for 40mins more. Whole time a poor dog was crying in the hold. I would have driven to YYZ and made my connection had I known.

    When we took off the pilot said we may have noticed a 'western based carrier' jet take off and that our pilot believed the WS plane should not have because of the visibility.

    Does the tower not control who takes off? How did the WS plane get in front of us and go?

    Curious.

    86


    A certain take-off visibility (RVR) is required to legally take-off. These visiabilities vary depending on a particular runway (lighting etc) and are generally the same between airplane types. The tower cannot prevent anyone from taking off. They provide the actual visability readings and the pilot decides to go or not. If the vis readings are below the legal requirement and the pilot takes off a violation is filed by ATC and the pilot can be fined or have his licence suspended re a hearing. Readings fluctuate and perhaps the Westjet flight arrived at the runway during a brief "fluctuation".....Again these limits are set for safety.


  • Might the Jazz pilot been trying to make the people on board feel better over something they could see, as opposed to the possible delays in YYZ, which was probably the real reason the flight stayed on the ground? If the pax think the delay is because of the fog, they would probably be more understanding, especially after the WS comment, whereas being told Toronto is all messed up, the pax might still think they should be in the air with the perception they are getting somewhere.


  • Its up to the pilot in command whether he/she wants to take off, of course, company policy is also a factor.


  • I remember doing that once on CP, I think it was YOW-LHR and they announced the fog was just below the limit, but that we were going to board anyway and get in line to try and catch a break in the fog. We did. :)

    What was good about making the announcement that way was that it gave us the sense that no matter how bad the fog looked at that moment, we weren't taking off in it like that, and it prepared us for a lengthy wait, and we probably would be less annoyed if we'd come back, since we'd perceive it as doing everything they could to get us out.

    =aw


  • One thing missed in the original story was the WS flight was also scheduled 65 minutes after the Jazz flight the OP was on. So it might have been too foggy at 610, but not too foggy at 715. I don't know how much later the Jazz flight left after the WS did, but the OP makes it sound like it was in the 720-725 range.


  • Wednesday morning I was on the 6:10am to YYZ from YXU. On arrival at the airport I asked if the fog was a problem. Told no, boarded. Then of course sat on the runway due to fog. for 30 mins. Then rolled to side of runway for 40mins more. Whole time a poor dog was crying in the hold. I would have driven to YYZ and made my connection had I known.

    When we took off the pilot said we may have noticed a 'western based carrier' jet take off and that our pilot believed the WS plane should not have because of the visibility.

    Does the tower not control who takes off? How did the WS plane get in front of us and go?

    Curious.

    86

    The rivalry hits new highs, or lows. :rolleyes: Disparaging WS as the AC pilot did is unprofessional IMHO as I cannot believe that WS pilot would've taken off in poor conditions that compromised passenger safety.


  • Yeah, pretty pathetic you didn't even do me the courtesy of actuallly reading my earlier post. :rolleyes:

    Sorry I did read your post wrong. My apologies.


  • The rivalry hits new highs, or lows. :rolleyes: Disparaging WS as the AC pilot did is unprofessional IMHO as I cannot believe that WS pilot would've taken off in poor conditions that compromised passenger safety.

    If the Jazz pilot made that comment, way unprofessional IMO.


  • Those articles in the Star last week mentioned that AC has a higher minimum visibiliy for take-off/landing, WS just follows the letter of the law. Maybe the fog was too thick for the AC reg, but within the legal minimum.


  • ..... Readings fluctuate and perhaps the Westjet flight arrived at the runway during a brief "fluctuation".....Again these limits are set for safety.

    Would that be the same as,"the fog lifted for a few minutes" or,"there was a break in the fog"?
    Trying to put it into terms I am more familiar with :o


  • More info would be nice on this one. What was the prevailing RVR? What was the weather at the Dashs destination? Was the Dash Capt. operating under " new Capts" limits? Was there a shortage of T/O alternates in the 60 minute range that an ETOPS 737 would not be affected by?

    Lots of variables.


    I assume if there were "special" circumstances" the Capt would not make the initial comment that started this thread. I know at the time YYZ ,YHM and YZR were good T/O Alternates. As per "new Capt" there are no restrictions for T/O just Cat 2 landing restrictions till 100 hours.This would not affect this operation.If weather at the dash's destination was a factor it would not have affected the T/O unless of course a return to YXU as an alternate was the only option. With YYZ ,YHM and YZR weather good that was not the case. ETOPS 737 would not have affected the T/O unless they did not have a T/O Alternate closeby but that was not the case. But you are correct we were not there...Only the actual RVR readings would tell the tale


  • Could it be that WS is dealing with a 737 whereas you are either on a DH3 or DH1? The rules regarding take-off in fog may well be different between a turboprop & a much larger a/c.?? Pilots on the board have any comments?







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